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Post by mobyrox on Dec 8, 2006 16:11:55 GMT -5
hey relay, ok, you aren't anti-working class, but then I guess I'm confused why you bring up poor Jamaican's in response to a raise in minimum wage? Yes, we are lucky to live in a rich country but because we live in a rich country it's a double edged sword. yes, there is great opportunity but the people who have to struggle to get by have it worse because the cost of living is so high compared to Jamaica which is a poor country but pretty much a paradise because it's a paradise cost of living is much lower and it takes less to make them happy...much of them only a spliff....
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Post by somasoul on Dec 9, 2006 22:06:53 GMT -5
hey relay, ok, you aren't anti-working class, but then I guess I'm confused why you bring up poor Jamaican's in response to a raise in minimum wage? Yes, we are lucky to live in a rich country but because we live in a rich country it's a double edged sword. yes, there is great opportunity but the people who have to struggle to get by have it worse because the cost of living is so high compared to Jamaica which is a poor country but pretty much a paradise because it's a paradise cost of living is much lower and it takes less to make them happy...much of them only a spliff.... Once I heard someone say something akin to: "Being poor is easy if don't spend too much money trying to hide it" I think this applies so heavily to poor Americans. Yes, there are many poor Americans and yes it's hard to get out of that rut. Many poor Americans deck themselves out in some swanky gear and spend money attempting to be rich. Visit any low end apartment complex and you'll see newer cars, not 20 year old Corrollas. Visit the Ghetto and you'll see guys with $200 sneakers. The problem with Americans, regardless of economic status, is that they live one or two tiers above where they should. They used to call this "Kepping up with the Jones'." The average savings rate for American's in 2005? NEGATIVE .05%. In other words Americans seemingly spend everything, all of it, they have. The minimum wage needs to be kept where it is. I always say this: Increasing the minimum wage increases poverty. All it does is increase the cost of goods and lower the dollars' value. Simply put, when the dollar's value is lowered, people who have money in savings or the market, suddenly have less. And it destablizes the dollar on the international market and increases foreign currancy's value. This means that Americans can only purchase less and less goods and services. A higher minimum wage will increase poverty, not decrease it.
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Post by mobyrox on Dec 11, 2006 16:32:12 GMT -5
hey relay, ok, you aren't anti-working class, but then I guess I'm confused why you bring up poor Jamaican's in response to a raise in minimum wage? Yes, we are lucky to live in a rich country but because we live in a rich country it's a double edged sword. yes, there is great opportunity but the people who have to struggle to get by have it worse because the cost of living is so high compared to Jamaica which is a poor country but pretty much a paradise because it's a paradise cost of living is much lower and it takes less to make them happy...much of them only a spliff.... Once I heard someone say something akin to: "Being poor is easy if don't spend too much money trying to hide it" I think this applies so heavily to poor Americans. Yes, there are many poor Americans and yes it's hard to get out of that rut. Many poor Americans deck themselves out in some swanky gear and spend money attempting to be rich. Visit any low end apartment complex and you'll see newer cars, not 20 year old Corrollas. Visit the Ghetto and you'll see guys with $200 sneakers. The problem with Americans, regardless of economic status, is that they live one or two tiers above where they should. They used to call this "Kepping up with the Jones'." The average savings rate for American's in 2005? NEGATIVE .05%. In other words Americans seemingly spend everything, all of it, they have. The minimum wage needs to be kept where it is. I always say this: Increasing the minimum wage increases poverty. All it does is increase the cost of goods and lower the dollars' value. Simply put, when the dollar's value is lowered, people who have money in savings or the market, suddenly have less. And it destablizes the dollar on the international market and increases foreign currancy's value. This means that Americans can only purchase less and less goods and services. A higher minimum wage will increase poverty, not decrease it. wow, soma, pardon me but that's just plain crazy. i think you do a lot of stereotyping there. Not everyone in the ghetto has $200 sneakers and not a lot of people drive newer cars in low end apartment complexes. I guess we disagree again. I guess people who don't earn a lot need to be kept down by a society who looks down on those with low paying jobs. So if that's the case minimum wage shouldn't be increased. I don't think all of America thinks the way you do Soma. I think increasing minimum wage will do a lot of good for this nation. Cost of living has already gone up the minimum wage has not. Luckily the dems have made this a priority and maybe working America will be begin to feel like they can make more of a living. After all minimum wage has not been increased since Clinton was in office. It's been too long. I guess me and you will have to agree to disagree on this one soma.
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Post by relay on Dec 11, 2006 17:36:50 GMT -5
Moby, you are putting words in everyone's mouths. Soma said nothing about keeping down people who earn less. This is what he said:
And I didn't bring up Jamaica, but which ever. I could care less about minimum wage. What made post were, I think, 2 comments. There were something like:
"Soon everything will be rich people's stuff" and something about not being able to live comfortably.
Thinking you don't live comfortable while typing at your computer while people around the world are starving is what I call ignorant. And saying that the cost of living is lower in Jamaica so its easier to live is also ignorant and rediculous. Its ok that they are starving because they are used to it? Is that it? I brought up Africa. What's the "cost of living" there? They don't have terms like that, they just wish they has some food in alot of places.
I don't care if they raise minimum wage, but if your reason is so that you can live 'comfortably' then you need to adjust you ideas of comfortably. And if your reason is that ohly rich people can have 'stuff', then you need to ask yourself how many times you ate this week, and take a look at the people who haven't eaten at all this week.
So go ahead, raise minimum wage, after all we have to keep Americans happy.
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Post by mobyrox on Dec 11, 2006 17:54:11 GMT -5
Moby, you are putting words in everyone's mouths. Soma said nothing about keeping down people who earn less. This is what he said: And I didn't bring up Jamaica, but which ever. I could care less about minimum wage. What made post were, I think, 2 comments. There were something like: "Soon everything will be rich people's stuff" and something about not being able to live comfortably. Thinking you don't live comfortable while typing at your computer while people around the world are starving is what I call ignorant. And saying that the cost of living is lower in Jamaica so its easier to live is also ignorant and rediculous. Its ok that they are starving because they are used to it? Is that it? I brought up Africa. What's the "cost of living" there? They don't have terms like that, they just wish they has some food in alot of places. I don't care if they raise minimum wage, but if your reason is so that you can live 'comfortably' then you need to adjust you ideas of comfortably. And if your reason is that ohly rich people can have 'stuff', then you need to ask yourself how many times you ate this week, and take a look at the people who haven't eaten at all this week. So go ahead, raise minimum wage, after all we have to keep Americans happy. relay, relay, relay... i don't know what else to say. I give money to charity when I can yet you say when I buy anything I don't need then I am spitting on the poor in other countries. So, riddle me this...how much spitting on the poor are the richer echelons of the middle class as well as those in the upper class doing? hmmm.... you say that people may work hard at jobs that are not "hard" work...anyone else confused by this sentiment? Again, I would say we need a minimum wage increase as cost of living has gone up but wages have not increased. For instance, my rent will be going up another $10/mo for my efficency of which my new rent will be $535... I did not get a raise this year. I got a bonus which got taxed to hell and did not leave me w/ much at all. If the bonus were spread out over the yr. it would equal less than .10/hr raise. my next raise which I have to wait until next labor day to get will be .10. by the way I do not yet have a new computer but will need one in my line of work if I ever get into what I went to college for. I have to use the library or go to the mall. It's not a luxury I can afford right now and since we're talking luxuries I've never been to Jamaica to be able to fly there is a luxury of a rich person, did you spit on the poor there because you didn't "need" to go? Yeah, I donated to Africa. I wasn't spitting on the poor there. I don't have many luxuries but there's stuff everyone can do without. I would have to say though the poor in this country do deserve better the lower classes of this country deserve better. Saying minimum wage needn't be increased because it's unnecessary because it'll only encourage spending on worthless things is a lame argument because who spends more on worthless things and earns their money not doing "hard work" oh, that's right the upper class. Your argument against min. wage is sad. We do need to be mindful of those in other countries BUT we also have to be mindful of the needy in this country. I'm tired of this argument. I'm going to be done w/ this thread for awhile.
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Post by relay on Dec 11, 2006 18:46:25 GMT -5
That's not what I said. And why are you back to the 'hard work' thing. All I said was digging a ditch is harder than flipping burgers. And the ditch digger gets paid more. I know this. Its true get over it. Seriously, its not that hard of a concept. If you show up on time, flip your burgers effectively, and are super nice to all customers, your still not gonna kill yourself because of the work itself. Now, when I was in a ditch laying pvc in the cold and driving ground rods with the 90lb jackhammer, yeah, that was hard. And guess what? I got paid more then when I worked at the gas station. Why? Can't anyone do that? Sure, but do they want to? Its warmer in Burger King than out in the ditch in December.
And at what time did I single you out for anything? Did you make the statements I mentioned? So don't worry about it. I just think we as Americans need to be more content with what we have. Yes, that is a general statement, and I with OK that small generalization.
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Post by somasoul on Dec 11, 2006 19:50:48 GMT -5
I don't think all of America thinks the way you do Soma. I think increasing minimum wage will do a lot of good for this nation. Cost of living has already gone up the minimum wage has not. Luckily the dems have made this a priority and maybe working America will be begin to feel like they can make more of a living. After all minimum wage has not been increased since Clinton was in office. It's been too long. Why not raise it to $1,000,000 an hour? Then we'll ALL BE RICH!!! *Spends 20 minutes on Safeway's website" For instance: In San Francisco, where the minimum wage is $8.62, a 24oz loaf of Bakers Inn 100% Whole Wheat Sliced Bakery Bread is $3.29. In Baltimore, where the minimum wage is $6.10 the same loaf of bread $2.69. That's a difference of .60. Minimum wage merely results in higher priced goods, as it always has, and it merely results in the poor having to ask for another increase. For instance, right now the minimum wage is at it's lowest since the 60s. It's worth under $4.00 versus the minimum wage in 1995. And while the cost of living has gone up, the poverty rate hasn't. In 1965 the poverty rate was 13.9%. In 2003 the rate was an even 10%. So while the minimum wage is virtually identical the poverty rates vary by nearly 30%!!!! The bottom line, mobyrox, is that by raising the minimum wage you will acomplish exactly what you wish to eliminate. You will, absolutly, increase poverty. A better approach to accomplish what you want to accomplish is to demand better governmental college grant programs.
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~Z~
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Post by ~Z~ on Dec 12, 2006 12:22:57 GMT -5
Relay - I am pretty much done with you. Hopefully, you will at least listen to what I have to say here.
I talked to a few people about this outside the boards, and I got a better understanding. Yes, it would be nice if minimum wage was increased. Yes, the increase of wages, increases the rate of goods. The rate if living has gone up, while poverty levels have gone down. It was explained to me, and I understand a little better than the messed up ways that you put it, that basically, we would be running forward to stand still. The Red Queen effect, in economics. Look it up in Wikipedia. It's rather simple.
Although, I will still say that if I lived by myself on the wages I am getting, which is 1150.00 per month (that's net - what I bring home), rent in the apartment I was living in before was 763.00. I could pay electric, which was about 60.00. That's totaling to 823.00 now, in bills. Phone is 70.00, totaling to 893.00. My debt management program is 244.00. 1137.00. Wow. 13 bucks a month for groceries. I still believe that something needs to be done about wages - or amybe it's that everything else needs to come down. Maybe the tax breaks for the rich should be taken away. Or the government needs to quit taxing everyone so much.
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Post by relay on Dec 12, 2006 16:28:19 GMT -5
I guess you didn't read my last post. Soma is the one talking about poverty levels and rate. I said I could care less if they raise minimum wage. That wasn't what prompted me to post.
Second, $70 for phone? Is that a cell phone only? That doesn't have to be that much.
Third, I worked out my monthly budget, and I have $20 left a week if I stick to alotted gas and food (and don't go over the phone minutes). That's sticking to a minimum that's pretty basic. So if I go to a movie, I can put a whole $10 dollars in the bank that week!
Why do you need debt management? It seems you have your bills worked out, so what does that do for you? Maybe you should get rid of that bill?
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Post by somasoul on Dec 12, 2006 19:07:16 GMT -5
Although, I will still say that if I lived by myself on the wages I am getting, which is 1150.00 per month (that's net - what I bring home), rent in the apartment I was living in before was 763.00. I could pay electric, which was about 60.00. That's totaling to 823.00 now, in bills. Phone is 70.00, totaling to 893.00. My debt management program is 244.00. 1137.00. Wow. 13 bucks a month for groceries. I still believe that something needs to be done about wages - or amybe it's that everything else needs to come down. Maybe the tax breaks for the rich should be taken away. Or the government needs to quit taxing everyone so much. Hang on one second here: Income: $1150 Per month. (Are you in college? $1500 gross is only $18,000 per year! If you're full time you need a new job!!!) Anyway........where was I? Oh Yeah, $1150 Per month -763 -60 =$237 Your phone is a luxery item. And, I'm sorry, but debt management means you aquired debt, poor financial decision. You have $237 per month to do what you wish with. Hardly a vast amount of money but enough to live on. The SHARE Program is $16. The solution is better financial planning.
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Post by redswine on Dec 12, 2006 22:48:49 GMT -5
if you can't get a better job, get another job, deliver pizza's at night, work at McDonalds, whatever. If you can't afford groceries than do something about. I will acknowledge that it is good that you are doing something to help your situation by living with someone else.
I am opposed to Soma in that you can't do anything about your poor decisions in the past and it is good that you are doing something about it and paying it back and not looking for an easy way out.
But there are ways to make more money than just keep on doing what your doing (I'm not refering to you specifically) and expecting a hand out from the government or others.
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~Z~
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Post by ~Z~ on Dec 14, 2006 12:41:41 GMT -5
I guess you didn't read my last post. Soma is the one talking about poverty levels and rate. I said I could care less if they raise minimum wage. That wasn't what prompted me to post. Second, $70 for phone? Is that a cell phone only? That doesn't have to be that much. Third, I worked out my monthly budget, and I have $20 left a week if I stick to alotted gas and food (and don't go over the phone minutes). That's sticking to a minimum that's pretty basic. So if I go to a movie, I can put a whole $10 dollars in the bank that week! Why do you need debt management? It seems you have your bills worked out, so what does that do for you? Maybe you should get rid of that bill? Relay, I know you didn't mention poverty levels. I was responding to everything at once. I have T-mobile for my service. I got a free phone, and I got 1500 minutes, free t-mobile to t-mobile, and it's really only about 68 and change per month. That was the best I could find. I have tried going on a budget - and it's hard. I may try it again - when I have more money in the bank again, since all I seem to do is pay bills. I am already on top of everything again, without going overdrawn. And that's enough for me right now. I have been on debt management because I had a lot of credit card bills leftover from when David was around. Plus, Northwest Hospital came around in March and tried to sue me for non-payment. So that is on Debt Management, too. If you want to pay $4,000 off, go right ahead. That would take me years - whereas, with debt management, I maybe have only about a little over a year left. Relay - you really should get to know a situation before you start judging.
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~Z~
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Post by ~Z~ on Dec 14, 2006 12:47:24 GMT -5
Hang on one second here: Income: $1150 Per month. (Are you in college? $1500 gross is only $18,000 per year! If you're full time you need a new job!!!) Anyway........where was I? Oh Yeah, $1150 Per month -763 -60 =$237 Your phone is a luxery item. And, I'm sorry, but debt management means you aquired debt, poor financial decision. You have $237 per month to do what you wish with. Hardly a vast amount of money but enough to live on. The SHARE Program is $16. The solution is better financial planning. I am not in college right now. And like I said before, the debt was acquired because I was an idiot when I married David and was unable to say no to him for whatever reasons of my own or because he wouldn't let me. It doesn't matter now. For anyone to reach me - phone is kind of a requirement. How about getting a job, for instance? How else will they reach you? And what is the SHARE program? You remember, Soma - I am in FL. You know my background. And I know about financial planning. I am working towards it, don't worry about that. It's easier said than done. And yes, I am full-time. I know I could use a better job, but there are no jobs in FL in my area right now that I can get for more than 9 bucks an hour. That's pretty good to start at in FL, and I was fortunate to get the job I have now, with no prior experience in hospitality. There is a rumor that I have been told directly by a member of management that I will be getting a promotion in the near future, but not until the hotel opens. Yes, pay raise. BUt why go elsewhere, when I have already been job-hopping for so long. I'm tired of job-hopping. I found something I like, I know it's the right path for the goal that I want - and I have to stick it out. And sure, that's my choice. It may not be "hard" - but it's what I enjoy doing, and I know where it will lead, and how to get to my goal through it.
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~Z~
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Post by ~Z~ on Dec 14, 2006 12:50:53 GMT -5
if you can't get a better job, get another job, deliver pizza's at night, work at McDonalds, whatever. If you can't afford groceries than do something about. I will acknowledge that it is good that you are doing something to help your situation by living with someone else. I am opposed to Soma in that you can't do anything about your poor decisions in the past and it is good that you are doing something about it and paying it back and not looking for an easy way out. But there are ways to make more money than just keep on doing what your doing (I'm not refering to you specifically) and expecting a hand out from the government or others. I don't live in that apartment now - I was using it as an example. I have 5 people in my household right now - and bills are much easier lately. I actually have considered getting a second job, 8-12 Monday through Friday - the only problem there is the car situation. 5 people and 3 cars are in the household, with schedules that don't ever coincide the way we would like them to. It's part of how it works, and we all make it work somehow or other. *shrugs* Somehow, Matt, I feel that in your post, there was some sort of "support" and encouragement, and I thank you for that. If not - well - oh, well. I thank you anyways.
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Post by relay on Dec 14, 2006 16:43:36 GMT -5
You've been reading Mobyrox too long. Judging? I was asking... what did I say that could possibly be construed as judgmental? I didn't know what debt management was, I didn't know if you were just paying someone to do a budget for you. So, actually, I was trying to get to know the situation. Maybe you shouldn't just start judging! I was asking about the phone because that seems high. I had Verizon and my plan was like $39.99 for 400 reg minutes and unlimited nights and weekends. Plus an extra 1,000 minutes for Verizon customers. I could hardly go over the minutes if I tried. I don't know what their plans look like now.
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