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Post by relay on Nov 26, 2006 20:15:48 GMT -5
You know, the second time I read this, I didn't laugh. It pissed me off. This isn't even close to a description of what I said. I try to explain what I say, and why, but you just keep telling me what I mean. What do I know, I'm just the one who wrote it.
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Post by mobyrox on Nov 27, 2006 18:04:19 GMT -5
i'm not the only person who took what you said to mean what i wrote.
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Post by mobyrox on Nov 27, 2006 18:14:01 GMT -5
There you go again Moby. How can you say that is how everyone would read it? Because you did? And again, you are telling me what my posts mean. You are wrong. I'm sorry but some of your posts make me laugh out loud. Pro rich? You are totally wrong about my feelings. I said nothing about 'fancy' work. I even said they do a good job, I even said they take pride in it. But, for example, working at McDonalds, is not 'hard' work. Yes its work. And you do what you have to. But if you think half the stuff you buy you really need, then you are spitting on the ones who are truly poor. That is what I think is cold-hearted. But that is my opinion, and apparently you are the only one who can have one without being judgmental in some way. I know about min wage. I worked at a gas station for about 6 months. It was work, but it was not hard by any means. And what did i do? I went somewhere that had potential to make more and I started at the bottom there. Why? I took the initiative to change my situation. ok, so people stuck in jobs that are 'less than' aren't taking the initiative? wow, that's crazy. maybe you judge people doing those menial jobs as not doing 'hard work' i think they would differ. I work hard and my work is hard. particularly because we have rates of speed that we have to strive for and that is hard for me because my disability makes it so. When i tell people that i do the best i can and i'm working as hard as i can because of my disability, i get told i'm using my disability as an excuse. i think you are totally blinded to what really goes on and the type of work that people do for the money they make. you know what else i think the poor need to be taken care of better too. I think those of us who work need to have a higher minimum wage. the rich get richer and those of us striving to get by aren't able to get by quite as well. the system is tilted in favor of those who are well off. but then i assume you know that, the tone of your posts is condescending to those who don't rise to the challenge of improving themselves? That's nuts. Yeah, cuz it has nothing to do with the crummy job situation. It's like you look down at those who can't do better. and if they don't succeed in doing better it's a flaw of theirs. it seems very elist to me. seems like you make good money so why do you need to worry about the working class?
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~Z~
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Posts: 139
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Post by ~Z~ on Nov 27, 2006 18:40:42 GMT -5
Relay - if you didn't mean what moby and I thought you said, then please - be more specific and say what you mean. In detail. Then, maybe we coule understand - and maybe we kcould agree with you. As it is, I don't even think you really know what you mean.
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Post by redswine on Nov 27, 2006 19:04:41 GMT -5
Let me start by saying I have minimum college education, no degree of any kind.
I'll admit that I make fairly decent money. But it wasn't too long ago that I wasn't. Out of high school I was working crappy jobs for minimum wage, as soon as I finished high school I realized that unless I wanted to continue to live at home this was not going to work. So I applied to a bunch of different companies until I was able to get my foot in the door. I still was not making great money, just barely over minimum wage, but I busted I disagree and about a year later I got a promotion to assistant manager, good money for me, but not what would be considered good money. But it was a raise, I moved out and got my own place and continued to bust ass to improve my situation and eventually got my own store as a manager. I continued to work hard and then got a bigger store, and then a commercial branch and then eventually an on the road sales rep making really good money. Then I got divorced, quit my job and started over. I was working for Bath & Body Works making whatever money I could to support myself and taking whatever side work I could get (I got countless eviction notices and barely stayed in my place). I finally got a job as a helper in the telecom industry, again, entry level and not much pay. I studied and put in countless hours of unpaid time studying to get better and now I run the telecom department for my present company.
The point? If minimum wage was higher, then where would my motivation be to improve myself? My thoughts as that minimum wage basically is enough to get you going and get you motivated, not enough to make you comfortable. If you have to work 2 or 3 jobs to make ends meet until you get a better job, than so be it. But people need to quit relying on hand outs and get off their butts and work.
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Post by mobyrox on Nov 27, 2006 19:09:32 GMT -5
Let me start by saying I have minimum college education, no degree of any kind. I'll admit that I make fairly decent money. But it wasn't too long ago that I wasn't. Out of high school I was working crappy jobs for minimum wage, as soon as I finished high school I realized that unless I wanted to continue to live at home this was not going to work. So I applied to a bunch of different companies until I was able to get my foot in the door. I still was not making great money, just barely over minimum wage, but I busted I disagree and about a year later I got a promotion to assistant manager, good money for me, but not what would be considered good money. But it was a raise, I moved out and got my own place and continued to bust ass to improve my situation and eventually got my own store as a manager. I continued to work hard and then got a bigger store, and then a commercial branch and then eventually an on the road sales rep making really good money. Then I got divorced, quit my job and started over. I was working for Bath & Body Works making whatever money I could to support myself and taking whatever side work I could get (I got countless eviction notices and barely stayed in my place). I finally got a job as a helper in the telecom industry, again, entry level and not much pay. I studied and put in countless hours of unpaid time studying to get better and now I run the telecom department for my present company. The point? If minimum wage was higher, then where would my motivation be to improve myself? My thoughts as that minimum wage basically is enough to get you going and get you motivated, not enough to make you comfortable. If you have to work 2 or 3 jobs to make ends meet until you get a better job, than so be it. But people need to quit relying on hand outs and get off their butts and work. i understand what you are saying but quitting and restarting elsewhere doesn't always work for people. Also, you seem to imply that if you work hard you will advance, untrue. there are so many people who advance and do not deserve to at my company and there are people who work hard and are relegated to lesser positions and can't advance no matter what they do. it's not as simple as you make it out to be. People cannot just quit and advancing is not as easy as just working hard.
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~Z~
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Posts: 139
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Post by ~Z~ on Nov 27, 2006 19:22:52 GMT -5
i understand what you are saying but quitting and restarting elsewhere doesn't always work for people. Also, you seem to imply that if you work hard you will advance, untrue. there are so many people who advance and do not deserve to at my company and there are people who work hard and are relegated to lesser positions and can't advance no matter what they do. it's not as simple as you make it out to be. People cannot just quit and advancing is not as easy as just working hard. Thank you, again, Mobyrox. I started working at my hotel in April at 9 buck an hour. In July, I should have gotten a review, and possibly a raise. But the hotel changed on the 1st of July. No raise. Stayed the same. They turned over so many people at the front desk, but never had a need to get rid of me. I trained a girl named Joannie in early September. She was 22 years old, had only a few short months of working at a Days Inn when she was 18, and never worked for a hotel since then. She worked at Sam's Club. Her mother is the House keeping manager at my hotel. Two weeks after I trained her - JOANNIE got the Front Desk Manager position. She isn't very good. She holds it over our head. She treats us all like children. She wastes paper. She makes everything redundant. She acts like we are going to steal office supplies by locking them up. She dubbed me Queen of Capa. She doesn't know how to train people properly. The other hotel people hate her. She calls them constantly for information about how to get reports when she could be asking me. They won't answer her phone calls anymore. Who really should have gotten the job? ME. I know the system inside and out. I trained at least 6 different people. I made all the general forms for this hotel. Now I am just waiting for the hotel to open so I can be the Group Coordinator, since that is what my sales manager Judy, wants. I have beenm job-hopping too long. I eventually want to go into business by myself. But if I know the path I need to follow to get to that goal - is it so wrong to keep working at 9 bucks an hour, no matter how much I may complain about how hard it is to live on it? You can't live on 6 bucks an hour. You can barely make it on 9. Minimum wage needs to be increased, period. It's not a hand out.
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Post by relay on Nov 27, 2006 20:20:44 GMT -5
Ok, I wasn't trying to accuse people of handouts. Although, in too many cases that's what people want in this country. Secondly, I was not implying that you do not work hard, Moby. I also will say, again, that plenty of people working these "min wage jobs" 'work hard' in the sense that they do their best and take pride in their work. Both very good things. But I will stand by my statement that not all these jobs I would describe as 'hard' work. The more responsibility, the more pay. The more physically demanding, to a point, more pay. For example, The guy in the ditch with a shovel and pipe does not make as much as the guy in the Backhoe (who has more responsibility to the boss), but does make more than someone flipping burgers.
I'm not claiming to know everyone's story. I will say that too often in this country people will whine, rather than put effort in. You said my posts sound condescending to those who don't rise to the challenge to improve themselves. Well, actually I'm ok with that. I don't condemn anyone for having any job. And there are those that try and are stuck. The problem I have is those that aren't thankful to have a job at all, and will whine rather than try. But Moby, saying I look down on the working class is ridiculous. I get up at 5am and I work with my hands and back all day. And today, in fact, I came home and hauled a load of wood from my neighbor's yard for some extra money that I can surely use. It was dark when I left my house, and it was dark before I got home when I was done. My point was that in this country we are so rich. And I think for anyone living in this country to say they aren't living comfortably when people in other countries are starving to death is very ignorant. I think people need to adjust their perception of "living comfortably" That was my point. I don't side with the rich, but I don't complain about the tax breaks the rich get either. I just do my job and I'm thankful to have it. I think what struck a nerve with me was how something was stated about needing the wage to come up so people could live 'comfortably'.
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Post by redswine on Nov 27, 2006 21:14:17 GMT -5
Meagan and I went to Jamaica for our honeymoon. These people live in houses with NO WINDOWS!! But they are some of the happiest people I have ever met.
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~Z~
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Posts: 139
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Post by ~Z~ on Nov 27, 2006 21:27:15 GMT -5
What does Jamaica have to do with America? They are two different lifestyles. It would be wonderful if we could all live like Jamaica. Or some other place where everybody was happy and could live comfortably with whatever we had. But that's not the case. So we can't easily compare places like Jamaica and America. You can't even compare FL and MD. MD had a 5% sales tax, while FL has 6-7% depending on the county. MD has county tax taken ouf ot payroll, while FL does not have any county taxes taken from payroll. MD gets snow, which can damage the paint on cars. We have nonstop construction, which damages the tires on our cars. FL has loads of illegal immigrants. You can't really compare things easily unless there is equal ground. Jamaica and America are not exactly on equal ground. Of course, I don't know that much about Jamaica - but regardless, I don't see them as equal ground.
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Post by redswine on Nov 28, 2006 6:39:10 GMT -5
the point that I was making is that American's (in general) are spoiled. By comparison the Jamaican's make far less than our minimum wage, but they're not spoiled. And we can compare MD to FL, we're all spoiled.
I'm sorry that you can't see the comparison.
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~Z~
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Posts: 139
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Post by ~Z~ on Nov 28, 2006 10:19:49 GMT -5
Yes, I understand that America is spoiled. That's not the point. OK, just for the moment, I'll let it be the point. Who is going to lower the rate of living? Who is going to lower the cost of clothing? Transportation? Health Insurance?
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Post by mobyrox on Nov 28, 2006 16:15:10 GMT -5
Ok, I wasn't trying to accuse people of handouts. Although, in too many cases that's what people want in this country. Secondly, I was not implying that you do not work hard, Moby. I also will say, again, that plenty of people working these "min wage jobs" 'work hard' in the sense that they do their best and take pride in their work. Both very good things. But I will stand by my statement that not all these jobs I would describe as 'hard' work. The more responsibility, the more pay. The more physically demanding, to a point, more pay. For example, The guy in the ditch with a shovel and pipe does not make as much as the guy in the Backhoe (who has more responsibility to the boss), but does make more than someone flipping burgers. I'm not claiming to know everyone's story. I will say that too often in this country people will whine, rather than put effort in. You said my posts sound condescending to those who don't rise to the challenge to improve themselves. Well, actually I'm ok with that. I don't condemn anyone for having any job. And there are those that try and are stuck. The problem I have is those that aren't thankful to have a job at all, and will whine rather than try. But Moby, saying I look down on the working class is ridiculous. I get up at 5am and I work with my hands and back all day. And today, in fact, I came home and hauled a load of wood from my neighbor's yard for some extra money that I can surely use. It was dark when I left my house, and it was dark before I got home when I was done. My point was that in this country we are so rich. And I think for anyone living in this country to say they aren't living comfortably when people in other countries are starving to death is very ignorant. I think people need to adjust their perception of "living comfortably" That was my point. I don't side with the rich, but I don't complain about the tax breaks the rich get either. I just do my job and I'm thankful to have it. I think what struck a nerve with me was how something was stated about needing the wage to come up so people could live 'comfortably'. relay, you know what, you aren't making any sense. Here's why I say that, you say that you won't complain about the rich's tax breaks but that people who don't do what you deem to be "hard" work need to apply themselves and quit complaining that they don't make that much. WOW! That's incredibly ignorant, if I do say so myself. Surviving in Jamaica is different than surviving in the US. Therefore you cannot compare the two. Because we are what you term a "rich" country then there is a higher cost of living. Poor in America is not poor in Jamaica which is understood. You say that people in Jamaica have huts w/ no windows, ok, there are some American's who try to get by that have no roof over their heads. If you want disparity compare Jamaica's rich to America's rich. Relay, I think you are living a sheltered existence if you think people who make min. wage here do not do "hard" work. How would you know? Some of the messiest, dirtiest, ugliest jobs out there don't get good pay, but let's not concern ourselves with that as long as the rich get their tax breaks.
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Post by relay on Nov 28, 2006 17:14:43 GMT -5
Moby, if you don't read my posts for what they say, then don't bother. What you say I say is not what I wrote at all. Stop putting your own views of me on what I say. I can't believe you take that stuff away from what I wrote!
Ok, let me try again. I said I won't complain about the tax breaks 'the rich' get because I am content with what I have. That's how I was raised, to work hard and be content with what God gives you.
Second, I clearly said that my problem is with people that will whine, and not try to better their situation. I also clearly said that I don't know everyone's story, meaning I wasn't lumping everyone together. I DID NOT say that all people working min wage jobs need to stop complaining and work harder. Here is what I said:
What exactly is wrong with that statement? Nothing.
And I never said that no one that makes min wage works hard. What I clearly said was my difference in definition of 'working hard' and 'hard' work. Let me pull that out for you too.
See? I said not ALL those jobs would I describe as hard work. But I know, I'm not allowed to have an opinion. I even gave an example, you, however, tell me there are all these ugly, dirty jobs that make crappy money, but won't list an example. How about garbage men? You know, the guys who ride on the back of the truck and throw your trash out for you...they actually make pretty good money. Not Bill Gates money, but definitely not min wage. Do you have any examples, or will you just attack my character some more?
I don't understand why you two don't get my point. You say you can't compare America and Jamaica because they are different lifestyles? Bingo!! That's the point! Of course I mentioned Africa. What I'm saying, and please read this carefully, is that we should not be allowed to complain about living paycheck to paycheck, when there are villages around the world full of people who are dying of starvation. Guess what? They don't even have a minimum wage!!
Still don't get it? What is living comfortably to you? Watching your color TV without worrying if you can make the cable bill this month? Millions of people just want to eat this month!! We are amazingly blessed to live in this country. The Bible says don't worry about tomorrow, tomorrow will take care of itself. And, doesn't God feed the sparrows, and clothe the lillies? Will He not also take care of you , who are much more valuable? Did you eat today? Yesterday? I bet you did.
Adjust your notion of 'living comfortably'.
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Post by redswine on Nov 30, 2006 7:20:54 GMT -5
Yes, I understand that America is spoiled. That's not the point. OK, just for the moment, I'll let it be the point. Who is going to lower the rate of living? Who is going to lower the cost of clothing? Transportation? Health Insurance? They haven't half the clothes you have, the have horrible transportation and no health insuarance somany of them can't even afford medical aid. You complain because you can't afford a PS3, they don't even complain they can't eat, they just do something about and are HAPPY!! I'm pissed off if I don't have A-1 on my steak. I throw away so much food who knows how many families it would feed. The point is, stop complaining. i understand what you are saying but quitting and restarting elsewhere doesn't always work for people. Also, you seem to imply that if you work hard you will advance, untrue. there are so many people who advance and do not deserve to at my company and there are people who work hard and are relegated to lesser positions and can't advance no matter what they do. it's not as simple as you make it out to be. People cannot just quit and advancing is not as easy as just working hard. You know what, some people get jobs they don't deserve, your right. But I don't know too many people who work hard and have a good attitude that don't get rewarded. Yes, it happens, the world is a cruel place, some people get screwed. But if you keep at it and don't give up it will work. Maybe you have to switch jobs, maybe you have to take a minial position to get your foot in the door. But if your willing and you work and here's the big one, have a good attitude, you will be rewarded. But whining and complaining about will get you a minimum wage paying job.
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