SO I am thinking about joining the unitarians

[mobyrox]

Hey everyone,

cool new boards here. It's as borat would say very niiiice. So I go to the horizon boards and see all my favorite haunts have been deleted. Oh well. This place seems cool.

Anyway, I didn't get to see the responses that were left regarding this. I haven't fully decided to join. I have not been back since that one sunday I went. The curse of working third shift and sleeping for 12 hrs. a day and well I was gone on vacation for 2 weeks. So I'm thinking about belonging there. The people are very nice and everyone has their own personal spiritual journey which is cool. I would like to check out the United Church of Christ before I commit though.

[godstyro]

Okay here's me showing that I know nothing about different beliefs as well as different types of christianity...

what do unitarians believe and are they a different belief or mixed in with Chirstianity along with the million other denominations Christianity has?

[roguebishop]

Historic Unitarianism believed in the oneness of God and not the Christian doctrine of the Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in one God) proclaimed at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD. Historic Unitarians believed in the moral authority, but not the deity, of Jesus. Unitarians are characterized by some as being identified through history as free thinkers and dissenters, evolving their beliefs in the direction of rationalism and humanism.

Throughout the world, many Unitarian congregations and associations belong to the International Council of Unitarians and Universalists. In the United States and Canada many Unitarians are Unitarian Universalist or UU, reflecting an institutional consolidation between Unitarianism and Universalism. Today, most Unitarian Universalists do not consider themselves Christians, even if they share some beliefs quite similar to those of mainstream Christians.[1] There is a small percentage of Unitarian Universalists who have a Christian-centric belief system.

Unitarianism as a system of Christian thought and religious observance has its basis, as opposed to that of orthodox Trinitarianism, in the unipersonality of the Christian Godhead, i.e. in the idea that the Godhead exists in the person of the Father alone. Unitarians trace their history back to the Apostolic age, claim for their doctrine a prevalence during the ante-Nicene period, and by help of Arian communities and individual thinkers trace a continuity of their views to the present time. Whatever the accuracy of this lineage, the Protestant Reformation of the 16th century saw in many European countries an outbreak, more or less serious, of anti-Trinitarian opinion.

Suppressed as a rule in individual cases, this type of doctrine ultimately became the badge of separate religious communities, in Poland (extinct), Hungary and, at a much later date, in England. Compare to Sabellianism.

Along with the fundamental doctrine, certain characteristics have always marked those who profess unitarianism: a large degree of tolerance, a minimizing of essentials, a repugnance to formulated creed and an historical study of scripture.

Martin Cellarius (1499-1564), a friend of Luther, usually appears as the first literary pioneer (1527) of the movement; the anti-Trinitarian position of Ludwig Haetzer did not become public until after his execution (1529) for anabaptism.

Michael Servetus (1511?-1553) stimulated thought in this direction and heavily influenced other reformers both by his writings and by his death at the stake. In 1531 he had published his theological treatise De Trinitatis Erroribus (On the Errors About the Trinity), in which he rejected the Nicene dogma of the Trinity and proposed that the Son was the union of the divine Logos with the man Jesus, miraculously born from the Virgin Mary through the intervention of God's spirit. This was generally interpreted as a denial of the Trinitarian dogma (actually Servetus had described the Trinity as a "three-headed Cerberus" and "three ghosts" which only led believers to confusion and error). Servetus expanded his ideas on the nature of God and Christ 20 years later in his major work, Christianismi Restitutio (The Restoration of Christianity), which caused his burning at the stake in Calvin's Geneva (and also in effigy by the Catholic Inquisition in France) in 1553. Nowadays most Unitarians see Servetus as their pioneer and first martyr, even though his views on Jesus Christ are quite different from what Unitarians generally believe today.

The Dialogues (1563) of Bernardino Ochino, while defending the Trinity, stated objections and difficulties with a force which captivated many. In his 27th Dialogue Ochino points to Hungary as a possible home of religious liberty. And in Poland and Hungary definitely anti-Trinitarian religious communities first formed and were tolerated.

[relay]

Well, www.uua.org/aboutuu/ says this:

With its historical roots in the Jewish and Christian traditions, Unitarian Universalism is a liberal religion -- that is, a religion that keeps an open mind to the religious questions people have struggled with in all times and places. We believe that personal experience, conscience and reason should be the final authorities in religion, and that in the end religious authority lies not in a book or person or institution, but in ourselves. We are a "non-creedal" religion: we do not ask anyone to subscribe to a creed.

Our congregations are self-governing. Authority and responsibility are vested in the membership of the congregation. Each Unitarian Universalist congregation is involved in many kinds of programs. Worship is held regularly, the insights of the past and the present are shared with those who will create the future, service to the community is undertaken, and friendships are made.

I'm not even sure this is a religion. How can you say you have roots in Christianity and Judaism but not believe authority comes from one God, but from yourself? Christianity means following Christ. If you are you own power then you don't need God - then that sounds like the opposite of Christianity. I'm also wondering what they have worship services for? What are they worshiping then, themselves?

Sounds like a nice community club, not a religion.

Here's another site I looked at: www.newadvent.org/cathen/15154b.htm

And a quote:

In granting this co-operation each member enjoys complete freedom in his individual religious opinions, and no set of doctrinal propositions could be framed on which all Unitarians would agree. The bond of union between them consists more in their anti-dogmatic tendency than in uniformity of belief. The authority of the Bible is in some degree retained; but its contents are either admitted or repudiated according as they find favor before the supreme, and in this case, exacting tribunal of individual reason. Jesus Christ is considered subordinate to the Father and, although the epithet Divine is in a loose sense not infrequently applied to Him, He is in the estimation of many an extraordinarily endowed and powerful but still a human religious leader. He is a teacher to be followed, not a God to be worshiped. His Passion and Death are an inspiration and an example to His disciples, not an effective and vicarious atonement for the sins of men.

Here seems to be the same story. Jesus' death isn't the way men are forgiven for their sins? That is the core of Christianity, if you don't believe that, you shouldn't call yourself a Christian. Of course this seems to be a Catholic's view on Unitarians. I don't know what bias there may be.

[relay]

Moby, what are you looking for? Are you looking for a service you feel comfortable worshiping God in, or are you searching for what you believe. I'm not sure why you would go to this church for religious purposes if you believe in God, and that he became a man named Jesus and died for you sins.

This is not an attack, I'm asking.

[mobyrox]

Hey Relay, I didn't take what you said as an attack. Yeah, I know what you mean. While I wouldn't call Unitarians as a collective Christians there are some that do consider themselves unitarian Christians. If I were to join, this would be how I would view myself. I am also open to wisdom from other religions which are also given weight and validity in the service (at least to the one in which I attended).

I am seeking as well as I believe we all should be but not exactly for what I believe in. I know what I believe in and I believe in Jesus but I do believe there's truth in other religions as well. I understand that some people don't like to hear that and to them I am not a Christian. The fact of the matter is that I believe that if I were born in another part of the world and raised in a different religious belief system I would take that as Truth as well. If you are raised to be a good Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Shintoist (is that spelled right?) and you live in a way thats true to you and your system of beliefs you'll go to heaven. That's just the way I see it I don't necessarily expect others to agree or side with me. I just don't see a God punishing those who believe differently but morally to an eternity in Hell. At least not a just God and if God does exist (which I do) He/She/It must be good.

As far as unitarianism. I appreciate the synopsis of the church. The church itself, as was stated, has no creed or doctrine. Everyone is on their own spiritual journey and some are in fact atheists but the way I see it is that its kinda what God had in mind people of evert walk of life actually living and putting in to practice Christ's words. Feeding the hungry and clothing the poor and working for social justice for all. Somehow there's just something right about it. I see it as a multi-faith church people of all backgrounds coming together and loving their neighbors as themselves.

Sooooo....what do you think about that? Does this sound like a reasonable place or not? Don't worry about hurting my feelings. I like the place but am not completely sold on it. Like I said I want to check out the United Church of Christ too....

[relay]

Yes, I believe everyone should be feeding the poor, or serving in some way. But I believe that because I try to follow Christ's example (and fail miserably). I don't know how God handles people who haven't heard the Gospel specifically, but as Christians, isn't that our job? To go and make disciples? What I see described as Unitarian is a helpful club. Its not showing people Christ. I don't know about people who haven't heard about Jesus, but I know what I'm told to do. I am supposed to show Christ in everything. Of course I can't do this perfectly, but what do you accomplish by going to this kind of church? Maybe you are unhappy with the way the churches you've been to have been contributing to society? I believe that is a problem. I think that is something to strive for, and to work on in a church that teaches Christ. I don't think there is any reason to go to a church that doesn't teach about one God who reconciled us to Himself through grace. Why not start some community projects in a church of Christ and show the community the love that you have because God is love?

As far as other religions having some truth - sure of course they do. But what are these truths? Love people? Help people? These are true, but they are true because that is the example I'm given by Jesus. A religion that has some truths, and being the truth are different things.

I'm not trying to imply you are not a Christian. What I am trying to understand is what you believe. Do you believe the Bible is God's word, and you are saved by grace? When you say people tell you that you are not a Christian, I think there is a misunderstanding. I think they may be asking if you believe that you are only saved by God's grace through Jesus Christ; then why would you want to go to a church that doesn't preach that to everyone? This is an example. You don't have to see everyone the same as every Christians, but there are some basic principles to Christianity, ya know? Some of your views/statements seem like you aren't sure what you believe, or you don't know all of what Christianity says.

[mobyrox]

Hey Relay,

Good Points there. I know what I believe and that is there is a God. I believe that this God is called different things by different people in different religions. Some call him Christ, some call him Vishnu, some call him Muhammad. We may disagree wether we all serve the same God. I don't think it's worth it. There's a song from a Christian band when I was in college that had a line that always resonates in my head and that's "We are all serving the same God, aren't we?". As far as spreading the Gospel. I believing I and others are doing that without even having to speak a name of who we believe in serving others we serve God. I think that's what Christ came for to be a servant even though he was a King. Do you know what I mean?

As far as the Bible, it's well known what I feel about that and on the previous boards it's been controversial, I don't expect it to be any different here. I will say I think there is definite truth in there but I also think there is bad with the good. I think there's ism, pro-slavery, homophobic views that I do not share. There are things that were useful to that generation in which the books of the bible were written. Some of the views I believe come from man and not God. We are to love one another as we love ourselves but then there is specific views espoused in there which condone hatred and there is a passage which says (paraprhrased of course) 'to follow me, you must your brothers, sisters, your mother and your father'. If someone has the correct verse please post it I know I butchered it. I do believe there's some wonderfully transforming passages of love though with the at the well and the transformation from Saul to Paul.

I don't expect anyone at all to agree with me. That is completely fine. I do not wish to offend anyone with my views. I'm just responding to what was asked. Also, I don't know if the unitarian church is for me. They do have great people and a welcoming atmosphere but the worship did seem a bit flaky. I do want to check out the Church of Christ if I can find the one that's supposed to be near me. If that doesn't work out I will go back to the unitarian church.

[mobyrox]

One other thing I neglected to mention. I feel one thing that unitartians are doing right is that their worship seems like an interfaith worship where all are welcomed no matter what their personal beliefs are. That seems right to me. I think any God would want that. That's just where I stand. Again I don't expect anyone to agree.

Also, as a Christian, I don't feel that it's my duty to be forcing Christ on people or Bible thumping people. I feel my job is be Christ like in my love for people and compassion for others. I think that "faith, hope, and love" are the most important things, "but the greatest of these is love".

[relay]

Well, the truth is, the Bible is either God-breathed or it isn't. I think God is big enough to guide the pens and keep it what it was meant to be. I understand that there are different interpretations and emphasis in different demoninations - but its all or nothing.

I don't meant to pick apart what you said, but I find problems with some of the things you said. The first being the good with the bad. I think people are bad, not the Bible. I don't know where you get pro-slavery and such. I think you may be misunderstanding context or something. Homophobic? God created us with a certain design. I dont' think saying that makes you scared of homosexuals. Of course, calling a sin a sin does not give a us a right to discriminate. I sin too. I hope someone can put up the verse you're trying to quote.

'to follow me, you must your brothers, sisters, your mother and your father'

. It seems you left out a word. what was it? We have to what our brothers, etc? I don't think I have seen where it tells us treat our family negative, but of course God is to come first.

And to finish, yes different cultures/religions call God different names. Mohammad is not God, he is the prophet of Islam. Who, by the way says, in the Koran, they believe the prophets of the God of Isaac, Abraham...etc. But strange they aren't allowed to read the Bible. The key difference? They don't believe Jesus was God incarnate(nor do they believe He was the one crucified). That is essential to a Christian faith. This has to be. Jesus isn't what we call 'our god', He is God taking human form to reconcile us back to Himself. God is Jesus, and Jesus is God, but Mohammed isn't, and Buddha isn't. There were people.

One more thing I'd like to say. Believing that the Bible is true and the word of God does not equal pushing Christ on anyone. Its true, and I will tell you, but I'm not pushing it on anyone. Ya know?

[mobyrox]

hey relay, about the word in the verse...the missing word (I'm SURE it was there when I typed it) was hate.

I still would like someone to post the whole verse.

Yeah, relay there is a problem in that some Muslims don't have access to the Bible. I'd like them to have access to all holy books. Some Western Muslims have that ability but cultural Muslims in the middle East do not.

I went to a different church this Sunday. I went to the United Church of Christ which is right down the road from me. I think it's the place for me. A liberal congregation who are accepting of all be they straight, gay, bi, disabled, anyone is welcome. I think it's great. There is a member who is in the special olympics who is confined to a wheel chair and has some sort of palsey and she just took Gold medal in Bowling and she is going on to state. They know John Shelby Spong and like him and agree that even though things he talks about maybe controversial to a more conservative churchgoer he backs it all up with scripture and documentation.

I think Relay that all religions do worship the same God when it comes down to it. I don't agree with your assertion that the Bible is either all true to be lived by or it isn't and must all be discarded. I think there's definitely wonderful things in there but I wouldn't call everything in it God breathed or even God inspired. How much of Leviticus do we put into use today? When a woman breaks up a fight in a street between two men are her hands cut off? Some of the writings in the Bible are downright sexist and I don't think anyone would disagree that it puts men in a higher position of worth than women. Some use it as justification as keeping women out of positions of authority in Church congregations. I think it's sad.

[relay]

Then they are using it wrong. The Bible reflects the culture of the time, and records God's movement through history. Slavery was not good, but God used it. He used to demonstrate His power when He led the Jews out of Egypt. No where does it say we are to maintain the same lifestyle as cultures in the past. No where does it say we are not to change...in fact Jesus changed alot fo things. And an argument of Leviticus is pretty weak. Take it in context. It was law for the Jews of that time. How much of it applies to us? I dont' know. If you have a solid relationship with God, you are a better judge for what that means to you than I am. Second, Jesus came to fulfill the law, and Paul says several times we are no longer under the law. Leviticus describes a history that God moved through, and that came be beneficial to us. That doesn't mean those laws are in place for us today. I hope this made sense.

[mobyrox]

right but therefore that makes leviticus practically null and void doesn't it? There are other things in the bible like that I would have to say. Again I point out the sexism and homophobia in the Bible.

Denial of Christ's divinity, I don't believe will keep anyone out of Heaven. This is what I feel in my heart of hearts. Even the bible talks about how the Jews are Gods chosen people. Their whole religion is about denying Christ's divinity and waiting for their messiah. I think in the end of it all when we pray to God we are praying to the same God. Ya know?

[relay]

right but therefore that makes leviticus practically null and void doesn't it?

I will refer to this:

The Bible reflects the culture of the time, and records God's movement through history. If that isn't important then I don't know what is. Slavery was not good, but God used it. He used to demonstrate His power when He led the Jews out of Egypt. No where does it say we are to maintain the same lifestyle as cultures in the past. No where does it say we are not to change...in fact Jesus changed alot fo things.

Again I point out the sexism and homophobia in the Bible.

Ok, I think you need to read deeper. Remember the story Jesus saving the woman caught in adultery? Is that sexisr of Him? Who were the first people told that Jesus had risen? Women. Women play a big part around Jesus. What about Ruth and Esther? Ruth has a book of the Bible named after her. Wow, that is sexist! Now, homophopia? Who in the bible is scared of gay people? The Bible says its a sin. Ok. Its says alot of things are sins. It still says God loves me, inspite of my sins. I don't claim my sins ok, I won't claim that one is either. Deal?

Even the bible talks about how the Jews are Gods chosen people. Their whole religion is about denying Christ's divinity and waiting for their messiah.

The Jewish religion isn't about denying Christ. But they have. Yes, they are expecting a Messiah. God said He would bring the Messiah out of the Jews. He did. Where's the problem? I dont' know what happens to a Jew who follows the law perfectly (but can anyone?) but who doesn't know Jesus. But I can tell you what I know. Jesus was clear that He was the way to the Father. And He proved He who He was many times. So I know what I'm supposed to strive for.

I don't agree with your assertion that the Bible is either all true to be lived by or it isn't and must all be discarded

The Bible says that it is the Word of God. It also says not to add or take anything away from it. All I can say is that doesn't leave room for middle ground. Its the Word of God or it isn't. Just like Jesus said He was God. He didn't leave room for the idea He was just a guy with nice ideas. I don't know how else to say it. I know its true, and instead of worrying that it might offend people and so say Jesus is not the only way - perhaps we should work harder to show the love of God and introduce (not push) Jesus to people. Because that is what we are called to do in the first place.

[mobyrox]

relay said:

right but therefore that makes leviticus practically null and void doesn't it?

I will refer to this:





Ok, I think you need to read deeper. Remember the story Jesus saving the woman caught in adultery? Is that sexisr of Him? Who were the first people told that Jesus had risen? Women. Women play a big part around Jesus. What about Ruth and Esther? Ruth has a book of the Bible named after her. Wow, that is sexist! Now, homophopia? Who in the bible is scared of gay people? The Bible says its a sin. Ok. Its says alot of things are sins. It still says God loves me, inspite of my sins. I don't claim my sins ok, I won't claim that one is either. Deal?



The Jewish religion isn't about denying Christ. But they have. Yes, they are expecting a Messiah. God said He would bring the Messiah out of the Jews. He did. Where's the problem? I dont' know what happens to a Jew who follows the law perfectly (but can anyone?) but who doesn't know Jesus. But I can tell you what I know. Jesus was clear that He was the way to the Father. And He proved He who He was many times. So I know what I'm supposed to strive for.

I don't agree with your assertion that the Bible is either all true to be lived by or it isn't and must all be discarded

The Bible says that it is the Word of God. It also says not to add or take anything away from it. All I can say is that doesn't leave room for middle ground. Its the Word of God or it isn't. Just like Jesus said He was God. He didn't leave room for the idea He was just a guy with nice ideas. I don't know how else to say it. I know its true, and instead of worrying that it might offend people and so say Jesus is not the only way - perhaps we should work harder to show the love of God and introduce (not push) Jesus to people. Because that is what we are called to do in the first place.

Listen the argument that the Bible is the word of God cuz it says it is is a circular one and ultimately an illogical one. I have a HUGE problem with that argument.

Yes I agree the woman at the well story is wonderful. I would still say the bible is rife with passages that make it as though women are less than men. Scholars even say that well story may not even belong in the Bible as it might not have actually happened but was left in because it illustrated Christ's message. Therefore the Bible has been added to and subtracted from over the years. We do not have the genuine manuscript. It has been changed a number of times beginning with the KJV which many feel added more sexism. Sexism exists in the old and new testaments.

I do still contend that the Bible is homophobic. You ask who is scared of gay people. I say the church because they do not understand it. I believe sexuality is a) a gift from God and b) innate to who we are. It is something that we do not choose. I did not choose to be straight nor have I ever met anyone who has. Therefore, it cannot be a SIN to be gay (or bi). I always wonder as much as people rail on that why Christ himself never mentioned homosexuality and why it didn't make the ten commandments. Christ did talk about loving one another, feeding the poor and clothing the homeless, I'd like to see Christian churches spend more time discussing that.

The Jews are still considered the CHOSEN PEOPLE. They still deny Christ. In fact, I was listening to NPR this week and they had the author of "Born To Kvetch" on Fresh Air and he said Yiddish words contain a hidden meaning behind the literal translation and when you get to that you'll see that it all derives from denying Christ's divinity.

In the end, it's not WHO we call God, just that we believe and are living the best way we know how. If I were born in the middle east I'd be a muslim raised with the Qu'ran and if I lived in Japan, maybe I'd be Hindu or something else. I think it's all cultural. In the end, we all believe in God and we all have our own morality. Also, there are older religions than Christianity and in the end to say someone else is wrong and you are right is really nervy. What is better is living out the faith you believe. That is better than any proselytizing. I think judge not lest ye be judged also fits. No one knows for sure who is right. Just live the way you see fit and if you are secure in what you believe that should be enough. I wonder if Christians trying to get others to believe as we do all the time is right and if it just masks our own insecurities.