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Post by relay on Nov 16, 2006 17:52:28 GMT -5
I didn't mention the well, but ok. We do have accurate manuscripts, and if you researched you would see that. In fact we have more copies of those manuscripts than any other book we have today - and by ALOT.
Its impossible to argue your points. Some of them are not points at all really. Like the Jews are the chosen people. Ok, so? That means God chose them to use to change the world. That meant the messiah was a Jew.
You sexist argument doesn't make sense. Women in that time were less than men. It doesn't' instruct us to be that way. That is the time Jesus was here. If it was changed and portrayed another culture to not be sexist, than you could say it was inaccurate because its not historically correct. And therefore not true. By this logic you are saying history books are racist because the have slavery and the holocaust in them.
How much has the Bible been changed? Very little in comparison. Look at the footnotes at the bottom. They tell you what it is different. The wording is sometimes different, but the meanings have not changed.
You are offended when people imply you are not a christian? Look at it this way. As a Christian, most know that means to follow Christ and that our salvation is thru Him. This includes the Bible as the word of God to record it for us. People see you say that you are a Christian, and believe Christ died for you, yet you say that Christ isn't the way for everyone? Why would you believe its the way for you? Do you see what I'm saying? If you believe its true, how can you not believe its not true for everyone?
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Post by mobyrox on Nov 20, 2006 14:58:06 GMT -5
i am saying that it's not true for everyone because it's not true for everyone. when we (hopefully) get to Heaven's gates I think everyone will be surprised at who's there and people that were not Christians may be there as well. I think there will be a lot of surprises. It's up to God to decide. I think if you are following the way that seems right to you and are living it to the best of your abilities that will be all that God wants. I think there will be Buddhists in Heaven. I think we'll see Gandhi in Heaven. I think people who are religious but not necessarily Christian who do good with what their religion has called them to do will be in Heaven. Even people who are moral and do good and are good to people may be in heaven. People who have morals but just need proof that there is a God. I don't think we have to doubt that God is righteous and just.
Ok, on to the the next thing. You can't argue that the bible is perfect and totally God inspired because I pulled that one from under you. So instead you argue that the Bible is not sexist and not racist because of it's cultural context. You mention that a history book could be seen as such if we were to look at that the same way. That's just silly. A history book is not asking us to condone slavery, it's not asking us to condone women being submissive. The bible does both. I notice however you did not include homosexuality in your cultural context argument. Why is this? Why is it cultural when it comes to debasing women but not when it comes to dehumanizing gays? Could this be a personal view that people make into a moral one and then they use the Bible to hurt people in the name of God. Is that right?
I'm sorry I don't buy the whole Bible as being perfect and totally God-Breathed. If that doesn't allow me to be a Christian in your eyes so be it. How you see me is not important. God will judge me by my deeds and works. I am flawed but I am doing the best I can. Just like anybody. I think its more important to live how God is directing you. He may be directing His people to confront others about the things that are wrong in "His Word". He asked Abraham to kill Isaac so with God anything is possible. I don't think he wants us to hate when love is what Christ represents and what he came to give the world.
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Post by mobyrox on Nov 20, 2006 16:12:53 GMT -5
just some other thoughts, I believe we'll see Native Americans in Heaven even as they have a spirituality all their own. I also think we may see wiccans and other different faiths we never thought of. That means we might even get to see Raks in the afterlife. won't that be cool? All I'm saying there are no limits on God except for those we put on God ourselves.
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Post by relay on Nov 20, 2006 17:30:21 GMT -5
Moby, Moby, Moby.
How did you pull anything out from under me? I must have missed that. You don't have an arguement, that's why its hard to counter. I left out homosexuality, because its the same answer with women and slavery. Where does the Bible condone it? It doesn't. It doesn't condone any of the three. But it does record it. Saying the Bible asks us to condone this is just wrong. In saying so, one is wrongly informed or lying. That's really that.
Ok, so why are you a Christian? This is what I don't get. If its so bad, why aren't a Buhddist or something else?
Yes, you can't put limits on God, what you are doing is making Him into what is comfortable for you. God is not comfortable, He asks you to trust Him to be good in everything, ever in what you don't understand. Its risky.
Right, I use it to hurt people. Did you know my uncle was gay? And that he died of AIDS? He died just like everyone else that had been in a relationship with the man my uncle was with. And our christian views tell us to dehumanize gays, so is that why this man was welcomed to our church for the funeral service of my uncle? Being the man who was directly involved (yes, by my uncle's choice) in the disease that killed my uncle? Please don't imply you have insight on my shortcomings. I have plenty, and I'll share them with you if care to hear them.
And do you think you will pass on your own? Or do you need the grace that was given thru Jesus Christ? If you believe this, why don't you believe HIm when He said he was the only way to the Father? The problem with the other religions is that they all are trying to get to God. That is impossible. Christianity is the opposite of religion. It says God came to you.
God movement thru history was recorded by the Jews. The Messiah came, and the people closest to Him recorded that too. Think about this, cuz this is where I get confused.Stay with me on this. You confess to be a Christian. Which means you deserve death, but came to Earth as a man, and died to pay for your sins so you and I could be with Him for eternity. Right so far? Now, we know Jesus was God because He said so. If He wasn't God, then He was lying or He was crazy. We definately shouldn't be following His example if He was crazy or a liar. Right? So, now, this man who was God told us to go and make disciples. He also said He was the only way to the Father. Now, I don't think making disciples in the teaching people that Christ is the only way, means telling people to do their best and it'll be ok. Does it? The truth we know as christians is that nothing we do is good enough, and we the need grace - which we don't really deserve. And if you believe this as a christian, how can you think you are loving people by telling them doing their best is good enough?
Of course, this stuff is in the Bible. But what if we don't think the Bible is all true? Well, take you're pick. It says it is the Word of God. I see no middle ground. It's you who said,
So, isn't it putting a limit on a God who spoke the universe into existance by saying He couldn't guide the pens of a handful of men? We have a record of what God did thru time as we know it, recorded by those closest to Him. You feel its safer to make up your own views then take what God had written down for you?
Or perhaps He's directing people to college and seminary to learn about the Bible, and to help people understand it that don't have an education in those areas. Perhaps it isn't His Word that is wrong, just they way people will only see what they want in it.
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Post by mobyrox on Nov 25, 2006 12:01:50 GMT -5
listen. we aren't going to agree. there is just not one thing i can get you to understand. you know enough about me by now to know i am not legalist. i do not have a legalist nature. from what i gather from you having gotten to know you over the computer, as opposed to face to face, i get the impression you are very legalist. if not legalist, extremely traditionalist, in the conservative sense, and i am liberal. it's ok. we have different views. i think you take things to the nth degree and you think i'm going to hell from looking at things the way i do.
neither of us is going to change the other. so my ultimate question is what good is continuing this conversation?
I see things from a cultural perspective. again, if i was born in the middle east, i'd be equally sure my religion was right, if i was an extremist i'd be so sure i'd be willing to blow people up for my religion. if i were a buddhist i'd have inner peace about my spiritual life. there are older religions than christianity. there are people as sure of themselves they are as right as any christian. we do have to be honest and say, yes we believe in god but even though we have this belief and this feeling he (she/it) exists, we do not know for certain.
we need to be brave enough to ask our ownselves if we are wrong. if we are perhaps wrong we have to give credibility to those who believe differently and admit we don't have all the answers.
we can point to muslims and point to all the bad things done in that religion but we have to be honest and willing to look at the terrible, horrible things done in the name of christianity which people seem to forget.
i think people need to be more humble in talking about their faith and less humble showing their faith in action.
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Post by relay on Nov 25, 2006 15:48:09 GMT -5
No one ever misses the mistakes of Christians. You need to wake up. Christians say what they believe and they are persecuted for saying others are wrong. Anyone else says what they believe and its OK. But guess what, its expected...the Bible tells us we will be persecuted for our faith.
Legalistic? I'm not sure you understand the definition. I believe in the basics of Christianity. I disagree with Christians on things, particularly the legalistic views. You can't get me to understand a single thing? What I don't understand is why you want to call yourself a Christian. You only believe half of it. What you say you believe is not Christianity. I'm not attacking you, its just a fact. Christianity says one thing, and what you say is not the same thing. That's all I'm saying. You say I'm taking things to the nth degree. You're right I don't understand. I believe in what Christianity says. You say you do, and then you list beliefs that are not in line. I don't see why you want to call yourself a Christian. Moby, I don't know your heart, and I don't have all the answers. I'm stating facts. And I'm only going off what you say. There are basic foundations of Christianity, and you only seem to believe half of it. No where in Christian teaching does it say you can believe whatever you want to be a Christian. Am I right? Jesus said no one comes to the Father except thru him. You either believe that you don't. Its fine if you don't. But pick one.
Picture someone getting to Heaven's gate and Jesus asking them why they lived they way they did. He'll say" You didn't believe in me". Can this guy say, " I did the best I could with how I thought I should be. How was I too know what to do?" Then I see Jesus saying, " I gave you a book, with all kinds of examples!".
If Jesus isn't the only way to the Father, then He died for nothing. If you say you believe Jesus died for your sins, then how can you slap Him the face and say people can earn their way in another way? I don't understand how you can say you believe He died for your sins, but its not for everyone. That makes the sacrifice meaningless. If you don't understand that, then I'm sorry.
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Post by mobyrox on Nov 25, 2006 16:18:04 GMT -5
i don't think I'm slapping Christ in the face. I think with that stated it's time to end this thread. i've seen your opinion and that's fine. you know what i have to say. feel how you wish. it's not for me to judge how you live or think but it's obviously your job to judge me.
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Post by relay on Nov 26, 2006 19:45:47 GMT -5
What ever Moby. I'm not judging. That's all you ever see. If you took an honest look you would see my statements for what they are. Christianity say 'A', Moby says 'B'. Pointing out that 'A' does not equal 'B' is not judgment, its just fact. You need to look at why you take everything as judgment, then maybe you will get somewhere.
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Post by mobyrox on Nov 27, 2006 17:57:18 GMT -5
let me ask you this:
when you chose your church did you choose any church? or did you find one that matched your beliefs? How would you feel if someone judged you or your church as not Christian.
What you are saying is judgmental and legalistic.
I am trying to point out something profoundly simple to you yet you do not want to see.
Let me illustrate this with a biblical example for you. Thomas was one of Jesus' disciples yet when confronted with Christ in person he still doubted, it was only when he was able to stick his hand in Jesus' wound that he believed. All I'm saying that God is not going to judge those who do not believe in Him by giving them eternal punishment. If people can't believe for whatever reason because they demand proof whether atheist or agnostic that is biblical. If God exists God would have to show physical proof to those that doubt to prove his existence and until that time Jesus' divinity is legitamitely in question amongst those who were raised to believe in a different incarnation of God, perhaps an older existing version of God.
like my pastor said in her sermon on Sunday all truth is relative except for 2 things:
1) Love God 2) Love others as yourself.
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Post by relay on Nov 27, 2006 19:34:55 GMT -5
Truth is not relative. If that is true than, because of that, the statement itself isn't true. That is a circular argument. What I'm saying is not judgemental and definitely not legalistic. JesusFreak stated clearly and you still say not all Christians believe in the Trinity. Please try to understand that I understand what you are saying. I am not judging you character. I'm trying to get you to see my point. I'm pretty sure you're not trying, becuase it seems to me that anyone who disagrees with you, you claim to be judging. And here is my point for the last time. Politely and as clear as I can think of:
Christian, by definition of the word itself, is someone who follows/worships Christ. Following and /or worshiping Christ if he is not God, would be idolatry. So, if a person does not believe in the Trinity - meaning Jesus is also God, then they are idolaters. Now, please don't accuse me of being legalistic. That is the foundation od Christianity. Please don't say I'm legalistic, if that were true I wouldn't have a tattoo, and drink beer. And please, if you don't understand what I mean by my above statement, tell me which part doesn't make sense to you and I will try to explain it better.
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Post by mobyrox on Nov 27, 2006 19:43:15 GMT -5
Truth is not relative. If that is true than, because of that, the statement itself isn't true. That is a circular argument. What I'm saying is not judgemental and definitely not legalistic. JesusFreak stated clearly and you still say not all Christians believe in the Trinity. Please try to understand that I understand what you are saying. I am not judging you character. I'm trying to get you to see my point. I'm pretty sure you're not trying, becuase it seems to me that anyone who disagrees with you, you claim to be judging. And here is my point for the last time. Politely and as clear as I can think of: Christian, by definition of the word itself, is someone who follows/worships Christ. Following and /or worshiping Christ if he is not God, would be idolatry. So, if a person does not believe in the Trinity - meaning Jesus is also God, then they are idolaters. Now, please don't accuse me of being legalistic. That is the foundation od Christianity. Please don't say I'm legalistic, if that were true I wouldn't have a tattoo, and drink beer. And please, if you don't understand what I mean by my above statement, tell me which part doesn't make sense to you and I will try to explain it better. That's one persons definition of Christianity. it is not the definitive definition of Christianity. Oh so you have a tatoo and drink beer how in doing so are you not being legalistic? That doesn't make sense. There are many Christians who believe many different things. I'm sorry you do not understand that. Also, I don't understand how a Jewish person is an idolater. I don't understand how a Muslim is an idolater? If they are so are Christians because who's to say definitively that we are right and they are wrong? In the end, we all worship the universal God, that's all end of story. God's not going to punish someone just because they came from a region of the world which is Muslim and God is not going to punish another person who is Buddhist because that's the region of the world he is from and that's what they believe there... If God is love, he wouldn't punish people for believing differently.
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Post by relay on Nov 27, 2006 19:43:33 GMT -5
Oh, and by the way, no one recognized Jesus after the resurrection until He told them who He was. I don't know why for sure, but it may be similiar to the reason the soldiers didn't recognize Him in the garden when they came to arrest him.
To this I want to ask you a question. Before he ascended to Heaven, Jesus said He would return and take to where He was going. If its good enough for God to come back and make us believe He exists, and that Jesus was Him taken on flesh, then why hasn't He returned yet? And why would the Bible talk so much abut faith?
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Post by mobyrox on Nov 27, 2006 19:45:06 GMT -5
why would the bible also talk so much about doubt? If Jesus wanted he could have punished Thomas but he let Thomas feel his wound...
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Post by mobyrox on Nov 27, 2006 19:45:23 GMT -5
people who are muslim also have faith.
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Post by relay on Nov 27, 2006 20:30:55 GMT -5
So be Muslim. Ok, this is an honest question. You have said, that you think people of all faiths will be in Heaven. So why do you align yourself with Christianity? If faith in Jesus is not the only way, why do you choose to be a Christian?
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