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Post by mobyrox on Nov 27, 2006 18:02:55 GMT -5
not all Christians believe in the trinity. not all christians believe in a literal virgin birth either. i would say there will be people who are not christians in heaven. i would say if thomas doubted even with the resurrected christ in front of him until he was able to but his hand through Christ's wound there's lots of hope for everyone. i would also say that i don't believe a loving God would punish someone because their culture has a different religion or a different view of God. JF, check out the United Church of Christ's website. www.ucc.org. maybe it's the right place for you? If not, at least you may be able to have some interesting discussions with the congregation on your visit.
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Post by relay on Nov 27, 2006 20:51:19 GMT -5
not all Christians believe in the trinity. not all christians believe in a literal virgin birth either. i would say there will be people who are not christians in heaven. i would say if thomas doubted even with the resurrected christ in front of him until he was able to but his hand through Christ's wound there's lots of hope for everyone. i would also say that i don't believe a loving God would punish someone because their culture has a different religion or a different view of God. JF, check out the United Church of Christ's website. www.ucc.org. maybe it's the right place for you? If not, at least you may be able to have some interesting discussions with the congregation on your visit. I'm not picking, but I think you need to re-read the story. Thomas wasn't with the other disciples when they saw Christ the first time. He did not believe them when they told him they saw Christ. Then Jesus appeared and told him to put his hands in the wounds. He didn't disbelieve when Jesus stood in front of him.
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Post by jesusfreak on Nov 27, 2006 22:24:27 GMT -5
not all Christians believe in the trinity. not all christians believe in a literal virgin birth either. i would say there will be people who are not christians in heaven. i would say if thomas doubted even with the resurrected christ in front of him until he was able to but his hand through Christ's wound there's lots of hope for everyone. i would also say that i don't believe a loving God would punish someone because their culture has a different religion or a different view of God. JF, check out the United Church of Christ's website. www.ucc.org. maybe it's the right place for you? If not, at least you may be able to have some interesting discussions with the congregation on your visit. I went to their website this morning after I posted. I figured I should do some research. from what I read it appears as though they believe in the trinity. I couldn't stay on the web site for long but I will go back and read more. Thanks for the invite and I will go to one of the services locally here in the near future.
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Post by mobyrox on Nov 28, 2006 15:58:29 GMT -5
not all Christians believe in the trinity. not all christians believe in a literal virgin birth either. i would say there will be people who are not christians in heaven. i would say if thomas doubted even with the resurrected christ in front of him until he was able to but his hand through Christ's wound there's lots of hope for everyone. i would also say that i don't believe a loving God would punish someone because their culture has a different religion or a different view of God. JF, check out the United Church of Christ's website. www.ucc.org. maybe it's the right place for you? If not, at least you may be able to have some interesting discussions with the congregation on your visit. I'm not picking, but I think you need to re-read the story. Thomas wasn't with the other disciples when they saw Christ the first time. He did not believe them when they told him they saw Christ. Then Jesus appeared and told him to put his hands in the wounds. He didn't disbelieve when Jesus stood in front of him. actually my friend, thomas did not believe until he was able to stick his hand in jesus' side and even if that did happen how you describe it doesn't matter because thomas still needed that certainty by actually placing his hand in the wound.
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Post by mobyrox on Nov 28, 2006 16:23:37 GMT -5
not all Christians believe in the trinity. not all christians believe in a literal virgin birth either. i would say there will be people who are not christians in heaven. i would say if thomas doubted even with the resurrected christ in front of him until he was able to but his hand through Christ's wound there's lots of hope for everyone. i would also say that i don't believe a loving God would punish someone because their culture has a different religion or a different view of God. JF, check out the United Church of Christ's website. www.ucc.org. maybe it's the right place for you? If not, at least you may be able to have some interesting discussions with the congregation on your visit. I went to their website this morning after I posted. I figured I should do some research. from what I read it appears as though they believe in the trinity. I couldn't stay on the web site for long but I will go back and read more. Thanks for the invite and I will go to one of the services locally here in the near future. hey, glad you are thinking of checking it out, I don't know if the church has an official stance on the trinity, honestly I don't know if they have an official stance on anything.
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Post by relay on Nov 28, 2006 16:26:06 GMT -5
John 20:24-31 (New International Version) New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society [NIV at IBS] [International Bible Society] [NIV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]
Jesus Appears to Thomas 24Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
30Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Where does it say Thomas didn't believe when Jesus was there? Jesus shows up, greets them, and immediately turns to Thomas, who had not seen Him with the others. No where does it say Thomas disbelieved, it only shows that Jesus knew what happened before. I think the important thing to take away is that you should have faith without seeing God first. That is shown here:
29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
This does not back up your statement that God has to show people physical evidence for them to believe. Jesus clearly says otherwise.
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Post by relay on Nov 28, 2006 16:28:53 GMT -5
And if you look back a few verses before, when Jesus appeared to the disciples (minus Thomas) he greeted them , and immediately showed them his side and hands. Apparently He did that anyway, whether they believed or not.
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Post by mobyrox on Nov 28, 2006 16:32:54 GMT -5
is that the only place where the story is recounted?
It is implied by what Jesus said in what your have written that Thomas did not believe, place your hand in my wound so that you may believe. If had believed right away he would have said "My Lord and My God" first and not felt the wounds....
maybe in this passage it blesses those who do not have to see to believe but it not curse those who do have to see to believe....
while we are on the subject what about the handicapped? What about those whose ability to comprehend salvation does not exist? Will they be cursed to Hell? I say a good God for grace to exist will save all, if grace does not exist we are all condemned.
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Post by relay on Nov 28, 2006 17:36:53 GMT -5
No one has all those answers Moby, but I am not going to go against what scripture clearly tells me.
No, it isn't implied. It says it, but it says that Thomas didn't believe the disciples, not Jesus. There is a difference. And when you take it in context with the beginning of the story, Jesus did the same exact thing to the disciples without Thomas. It never says they didn't believe. When Jesus appears to all of them, He does the same for Thomas that He did for the others, as Thomas being the only one that didn't get a chance to touch His wounds earlier. It is clear. I'm not arguing with you, I'm trying to explain it to you. Also, it says Jesus appeared in different forms. Jesus' resurrected body was not exactly like His original body. And He could alter His appearance. Of course there were similarities, the wounds of course. The Disciples, earlier, thought He was a ghost because they didn't recognize Him at first. But Jesus still has His wounds to show them.
Not recognizing Jesus, is not the same as not believing He is God incarnate. But Jesus uses this time to emphasis the importance of faith. Interestingly, when the soldiers came to arrest Jesus in the garden, they did not recognize Him either - until He told them "I am He." But please don't confuse this story to mean, that God has to prove Himself to anyone before they are to believe.
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Post by polyeaster on Nov 29, 2006 12:27:59 GMT -5
I'm hapyp for you, Moby. And who cares about Elvis' orientation?
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Post by jesusfreak on Nov 29, 2006 12:44:57 GMT -5
I went to their website this morning after I posted. I figured I should do some research. from what I read it appears as though they believe in the trinity. I couldn't stay on the web site for long but I will go back and read more. Thanks for the invite and I will go to one of the services locally here in the near future. hey, glad you are thinking of checking it out, I don't know if the church has an official stance on the trinity, honestly I don't know if they have an official stance on anything. I look forward to finding out, besides it's what I believe about the trinity that affects my salvation. I believe that Jesus and God must be one in order for Jesus to pardon my sins. If I don not believe that Jesus and God are one then what good did it do for him to die for my sins? As far as people who are incapable of understanding the gospel, I believe that if there is a mental block or an inability to understand then God protects them. Just like he does small children. Now that is my belief and not one that I can say the church in general agrees with.
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Post by mobyrox on Dec 5, 2006 14:09:13 GMT -5
hey, glad you are thinking of checking it out, I don't know if the church has an official stance on the trinity, honestly I don't know if they have an official stance on anything. I look forward to finding out, besides it's what I believe about the trinity that affects my salvation. I believe that Jesus and God must be one in order for Jesus to pardon my sins. If I don not believe that Jesus and God are one then what good did it do for him to die for my sins? As far as people who are incapable of understanding the gospel, I believe that if there is a mental block or an inability to understand then God protects them. Just like he does small children. Now that is my belief and not one that I can say the church in general agrees with. Yeah, it is what you think, not what anyone else can tell you. No one at the United Church of Christ will force their views on you. All I know is that I feel welcomed there and feel that there are a bunch of likeminded people who attend there. Unfortunately, I was unable to attend last Sun as I had gone home sick from work and was trying to rest up. Did you go JF and if so what did you think?
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Post by mobyrox on Dec 5, 2006 14:09:54 GMT -5
I'm hapyp for you, Moby. And who cares about Elvis' orientation? heh, thanks, good to see you here.
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Post by jesusfreak on Dec 7, 2006 9:44:52 GMT -5
Haven't gone yet, but I will soon.
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Post by brendar on Dec 8, 2006 10:30:56 GMT -5
You know, unity is an important thing to Christians and yet we all want to do our own thing. We all (me included) want to pick and choose what we do and don't believe from a list and still feel like we are an integral part of the Body of Christ. At some point that Unity breaks down. We can say that we are unified but if we don't agree on who Christ is then we probably can claim that unity. In the end being an integral member of the Body of Christ is probably more important than how the people at a church made you "feel".
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